I guess Mr. Raffensberger didn't watch closely at the tryouts. Each player did the exact same drills. The coaches were looking for kids with all 5 tools of the game. With the rosters being nearly the same i would assume that Mr. Zelger had already had 10 of the best players in York. The turnout was great, but for a team to travel and play high caliber tournaments then can only roster players with the best talent. I'm sorry you are upset about the results. Hace your son workout during the winter, spring and summer. All kids mature at a different rate. Next year might give you a different result.

i was at tryouts , there were no 5 tool players there!!!! i know a little about travel baseball since my son plays tavel ball from fla. to mass. the tryouts were pethatic the main thing you couldnt see at tryouts were actual game situation or matchups from player to player . the pitching on these teams are weak as the true good travel teams get there pitching tru out the state and even states . i saw the teams and players the york young revolution wont win know big high profile tournaments just follow them and you will see.

J: I did watch closely and as the other parent reported, these tryouts were pathetic. It was a popularity tryout. My son plays baseball, football and hockey, and excels at every sport and plays heads above nearly all others in his age group. Remember the last name as he progresses thru the ranks. The name is synonymous with baseball in York.
And as far as having 10 of the best already picked, I dont think so.

Regardless of the picks, every parent thinks the next Ken Griffey or Roger Clemens lives is theor son or daughter. I agree that the try outs were difficult with basically three hours to make difficult choices. I am guessing that the coaches had to rely on the players that displayed good fundamentals and will have to adjust accordingly. I would suggest closed try outs in the future, so "expert parents" can quit being talent scouts. I wonder how many of the complainers explained to the young person how real life works. I f they fail it means that they must work harder and improve. The first year of anything is always difficult and I bet things improve for future try outs and selections.

I know for a fact that coach Zelger, Coach Kinnamen and all of the other coaches for this team are great coaches and know the game better than you parents who are complaining. The reason the 11 year old team kept 10 players was because in 2007 they were Maryland State Champs, something your childes little league was not. I gaurentee they wont win every tournament but they will win most. And to Jaime Raffensburger, sorry about your luck.

The major problem with the tryout was that the coaches were evaulating the players, many of which they had coached before. The "new faces" didn't stand a chance. Organizers could fix the problem by using impartial judges who know the game to score the players at the tryout. Then take the top 10 or 11 scores period (even if one of those top scores does not belong to a coach's son).

Evidently the parents that are complaining need to look at the rosters. There are two 11 year old teams.

Jim-I don't see the relevance of your comment.

I believe that Jim's comment was that there were so many talented kids in that age group - they made 2 teams. One of which Mr. Zelger is not involved with. Additionally, I assist in try-outs with my local baseball league - and the problem with taking "the top 10 or 11" as stated by "Anonymous" is that ... hmmm, what if there is no pitchers in the top 11, what if there are no catchers, firstbase men ... the coach is the one who is going to spend his time with the team - he ultimately needs to be the one who decides who is going to be on that team. He's responsible for his decision and I don't think theres a coach in the organization who won't stand behind thier decisions.

This is not the major leagues here. Pitching is one thing, but the most athletic kids can be successful at several positions. If looking to fill positions, then let the kids try out for a position. If it's all about the players the coach wants to work with, then spare the kids, skip the tryout, and "draft" the players the "coach wants."

For 2 day tournaments where pitchers are only allowed to pitch 6 innings total - pitching is critical to the succcess of a team; emphasis on team. And, maturity can have as much to do with tournament success as talent. Raffensberger who? I have been involved with York baseball for years and only know the name Raffensberger as the individual who has complained unjustifiably for months. Get over it and try out for another spring sport or go bother the Ruffnecks.

Anon1 ... i agree with Anon2. Again, you're right, this is NOT MLB, these are kids. You need to have ALOT of pitching. Just because a kid is athletic does not make him a good pitcher. My son, for example, has great speed when he throws the ball, accuracy to the point that the first baseman can field every pitch, but cannot hit a shoebox from 46 feet 7 of 10 throws.

It seems like you are just complaining to hear yourself complain. If you were a true baseball family, you would understand the need to have an entire field filled with position specific players... I guess that because the football center is an athletic kid - he'd be a great QB ???

Yea - you sound just as rediculous.

Anon2 and dis_gusted: you misunderstood. I was excluding pitching. I realize the need for A LOT of pitching, and I also realize that not everyone can pitch. I'm not complaining either; just entitled to an opinion, and I respect yours as well. I congratulate the kids who made the team, and I'm not necessarily saying they shouldn't have. I'm just advocating fairness because in the end, it is about the kids; not parents or coaches.

Half of those kids on the 2nd 11 year old team didnt even "try out" for the team....Falco, Axe, Hogg, Rissler and some others. How can a kid make a team when they dont even try out for it? Just goes to show the methodology that Zelger and Co. uses. These teams were handpicked even before the tryouts began.

There are currently 3 kids from the Craley organization, my son and 2 others that are better than half of the kids on the YYR 10 year old team and one didnt get selected because they wanted his father to coach a 2nd team. The only way to keep it fair for all kids is to bring in impartial evaluators who dont know any of the kids and hold the tryouts anywhere but Red Lion. I wonder why the YYR 10U coach, Brent Paules wont scrimmage the Craley 8-10A team?

anonymous 2, you afraid to reveal who you really are? I didnt complain because my son didnt make the team, I complained because the whole process was rigged and unfair to those outside of the Susquehanna League! Many kids on the 2nd 11 yr old team were not even at the tryouts. Explain that one. You're telling me that Red Lion has the top 7-8 kids in each age group in this county? I can show you 3-4 kids from Craley that have outperformed most of the roster for the current 10 yr old team.....past, present and at the tryouts. How can they make a team when they dont even tryout? Come watch any of the Craley 8-10A games and you'll see for yourself!
Yes, I do know more about the game than these so called YYR coaches. My grandfather pitched 15 years for the Phillies and Reds, won the 1944 All-Star game and I played Division I for 4 and was taught everything by him, baseball has been in my family for a very long time. I can guarantee you that Red Lion wont be in charge of the tryouts this year.

It's funny that someone is saying how the Craley team is so good. I heard the red lion team that has all 9 yrs olds beat the craley team. Whats that about?

GO REVOLUTION!

After reading these posts for months now and that a new year has dawned.. for the same complainers to be whining about the same topic over and over tells me everything that I need to know about those certain individuals. I think everyone just needs to relax a lil and not get their panties (or thongs) in an uproar. It is my honest opinion that every competitive tournament coach across the country actually wants to win so why would they not take the best talent from the pool. The only time it becomes an isssue is when it gets down to the last 2-3 chosen players which are all close in talent and potential and then the coach has difficult decisions to make to try to fill the positions on the roster. Are you kidding me that there has never been a better player cut on any given team AT the sacrafice of carrying, lets just say a second catcher??? Get real!! It is any coaches job to do what is best for the team 1st, then the individual player and never a coach! I witnessed the scrimmage between the self proclaimed powerhouse of Craley and their 3 dominant players against the RL Susquehanna B team last week and it wasnt EVEN a close game, and that was a team full of all 9 year olds but 1! Oh and for those dominating players..not so much..sorry..but unbiased unsolicited progress report there for you. I guess it always depends on which side of the fence you are looking at things from...I mean heck..my grandma won the 1957 Windsor Chess Invitational of Champions..guess that means I am more of a scholar than I realized and my kid might just win the Pulitzer. Do what every good parent or coach does and urge your child or player to work harder for what they want if they are indeed the ones who want it..Good luck to all the boys this year regardless of their rank or record. Hopefully all will be better players at the end of the year with good coaching and better yet..old fashioned hard work!!

skip, I watched that Craley/Red Lion game and it appeared that the Craley team wasnt using their best pitchers but rather using the pitchers that may not pitch much. I think Red Lion only had what, 3 or 4 hits the entire game facing those pitchers. When 2 of the better pitchers pitched an inning, nothing but K's. For all the "hype" about Red Lion, they didnt show me anything.

Baseball Nut..maybe you were at a different game then I was for I saw the Craley coach bring in his best pitcher mid inning (in a scrimmage) to try to get out of it and gave up at least 3 additional runs. I also saw a boy pitch for RL that may not pitch a game all year.as for the number of hits, when a team wins 16-8 or whatever it was I think that team may have had more hits then your distorted eyes saw unless your pitching is THAT terrible.try to soon realize that it isnt about you overzealous dads that are trying to live vicariously through their boys and let them enjoy the game of baseball for what it is!

What I saw was a scrimmage game where score is not really kept but working on situational baseball to work out any kinks. I also saw 3 kids from Craley that probably wont see much time at pitching and were getting some work in. I'm quite sure that if it was a league game that mattered with an ump behind the plate and the better kids pitching, things would've been quite different. You really think that Craleys best pitcher would only pitch 1/3 of an inning if it mattered? Think about it.

hold on I think what we have here is a case of what I call American Idolitis. You know during the first cuts people go in and sing like cats scratching a chalk board and thier parents are in disbelief because they think they are wonderful? I know that the kids that are on Mr. Paules 10u Susq team are the best they proved it last year going undefeited and winning the championship and the All Star team he put together proved it also. Mr. Paules has the best coaching staff in the area and I beg anyone to prove me otherwise just watch a practice. I have had issues in the past with Craley one EYC coach constantly harrassed me at the first base line telling me all we do is run run run well y.e.a.h! kid makes hit give him what he can get. sorry, I dont flow with the everyone gets a ribbon theory. if this is the same guy above he should take the beer goggles off and watch a game.

Baseball Dad, you just proved the methodology that was utilized during those tryouts. You think cause those kids won an ECTB tournament of 8 teams last year that they are the best, they're not. "oh, they won so lets keep em together as the YYR." Not a single kid from any other organization is on any of those teams, York Little League, EYC, York City Little League...none! And after this letter to the editor came out, a 2nd 11U team was added with kids that didn't even tryout. My son has played on previous tournament teams under both Paules and the Craley coach and I can tell you that Paules is not the best coach, as you insist. Didnt the YYR 10U team just get knocked out early on of a tournament recently? If they're the best I suppose they should have gone undefeated again, right? I just talked to the father of a kid thats on the RL Susquehanna B team. Paules wanted his son on the A team cause he's best friends with his son. Just goes to show the methodology that used during those tryouts as well. It was a popularity contest with teams already picked. They were simply conforming to the requirements of the Revs to conduct the tryouts knowing they were keeping those teams together. Case closed.

Tell me this, why did Red Lions best youth player in Corey Axe leave Red Lion to play for Windsor? It's the same sinister team selection process which Red Lion is notorius for. If you aint part of the clique, you're out. Red Lion has the mentality that they think they are the focal spot of youth baseball in York. They're not!

SO YOU KNOW WHAT OTHERS ARE THINKING? YOU KNOW THE methodology? Great! tell me what the winning lottery numbers are for tonight! look I'm told the clique thing is in every town it isnt some trait that only red lion has. and if you had to be in the clique how did a kid with a unknown last name make the susq team two years now? talent thats how! and he only EVER played a fall season before making it on the championship team last year. As far as the Axe kid being our best youth player see the american idolitis comment from baseball dad. I know a few others that are much better. and if the craley kids are so great round them up find a few more phenoms and form a travel team and go against the rev team and put your money where your mouth is! you dont have to make the rev team to play travel baseball and you cant prove your point crying over spilled milk. If these kids are that good someone will find them they are called scouts and when they find them it will be at a time where it matters in high school and college no pro player made it to the pros due to his pee wee leaugue stats. I can see how the hole thing looks the way you see it. I live here, but the whole susq team is NOT on the rev team so there are more than you that were upset at the outcome of the tryouts! life isnt fair sorry. But I am sure if you move somewhere else you will see the same thing. It also sounds like you are really infactuated with the team and their progress. It is baseball it is a game of great plays and slumps and even the best players make errors. keep following them oh by the way the team axe didnt make won there tournament.

Does Craley recruit for baseball? It seems that alot of there players are from other areas. Are these the outstanding players that are so good they have to go to another township to play? Maybe the parents are just chronic complainers and don't get along with people in there own area. Im not sure who Jamie is but it sounds like his kid and some other kids should be sent to the major leagues at the age of 10. Maybe the complainers should think about coaching if they have so much family background in the game, but then they couldn't sit back and complain about everybody else.

After this article came out, I took the liberty of comparing the current 11u and 10U YYR roster to those of the Susquehanna All Star rosters, and they did compare very favorably, almost identical. My concerns are that this was supposed to be an opportunity for ALL the children in the area. It seems that these coaches and parents have taken the fun out of the game for the kids. If the Revs want to be involved in youth baseball in York, maybe they should conduct the evals in coming years so there is no favortism that is too commonly displayed in youth sports, can we all agree on that? I was present at those tryouts and did witness the 10U and 11U evals. I did not see one child that clearly stood above the others in talent. I saw batting practice in a dimly lighted buiding against the jugs, which is vastly different than live pitching outdoors. I saw the majority of the 10U participants throwing consistently in the high 40's, low 50's, again not one standing above the others. I witnessed a few kids from RL, 2-3 from NEYSA, 2 from Craley and 1 from PNH and MT all displaying pretty much equal talent in the very limited time frame. When the talent is that close, how does the selection process take place? It's who the coaches have previous knowledge of. I only saw fathers that were coaching the team involved in the evals. I also took the liberty of driving 17 miles to Craley on Saturday to watch a scrimmage between the NEYSA Susquehanna A team and the Craley 8-10A team, which was a very very good and close game. I saw a few pitchers on NEYSA's team that were very good, one with very good velocity but little control and the first 3 pitchers from Craley were pretty dominant. After a play at the plate, I watched the 1st Craley catcher fire a perfect throw to 2nd to nail the runner attempting to take 2nd on the play. I saw the Craley RF make a diving catch to his left. I saw the NEYSA catchers throwing a few base stealers out at 2nd. My question is, why are there not more NEYSA and Craley kids on those rosters? There does seem to be some validity to some of these arguments being made about the teams being laden with RL players.

I dont know, which kids did Craley recruit?

I believe (and this is only my opinon) that those who were chosen fit the 5 aspects of baseball better than than others I cant prove that it is a clique thing therefore I will not go spreading rumor of it. as Disturbed stated "if the craley kids are so great round them up find a few more phenoms and form a travel team and go against the rev team and put your money where your mouth is!" if you dont ike it be productive at changing it crying is not productive. Gather all of the ones left out form a travel team find some sponsorship and play! that would be productive. also the statement about a pro player was never recruited on his pee wee leauge stats was a great statement. almost identical rosters? only 6 10u kids are from red lion. look susq ball is the most competitive youth baseball in the area these kids sure arnt slouches and if you have the talent it will be seen i know for a fact that that this happens but it is a waste of my time to continue here either take the advise of forming your own team and go against then at a tournament or stop crying you are not teaching your kid anything but how to make excuses for their failure plan and simple get over yourself and let your kid be a kid he is not a pro. any leauge they play in is enough for now and if thaey cant be challenged at that level go somewhere else many have and many have come back because red lion does have one of the best programs around. I thought the only parents that were bad sports in the area were neysa parents but you craley folks have proven that wrong. it is time to grow up and be a parent

sounds like to me that this charachter Jami should be the coach of the new and improved all-star team since his vast knowledge superceeds any coach in York county as he is resorted to being a information gatherer and analyst. Funny how a kid so good has to drive 20 miles to the river hills to play EYC ball..maybe after this year he will have to drive another 15 miles to wear out his welcome in Woodbine! What a joke!!

"ONLY" 6 kids are from Red Lion on the 10U team? Doesn't that compose 50% of the team? Look, the writing on the wall doesnt get any clearer. For 2 of those teams, the rosters are nearly identical to last years Susquehanna All Stars, even with the same coaching staff and that is not debatable. When the simularities are that close, questions are raised. I do find it rather peculiar that every coach has a child on the teams and in some cases, more than 1.
I dont look at it as any child failing for most never had a chance from the beginning and had the evals been conducted more fairly, I'd have explained to my son that he needs to work harder at his fundamentals. Being an educated person, I gather my facts and evidence prior to making any type of accusations.
I guess the mental set is that because 2 or 3 organizations choose their better players to participate in the SL that that makes the SL the superior league? It's a statement that cant be backed up with any proof.
The only way to ensure equality for all participants is to have impartial evaluators with each organization/league equally represented (and more of them) and conducted at a neutral site.

I specifically remember Coach Paules at the end of Rev tryouts telling all parents of the kids who did not make it, that if ANYONE wanted to step up and coach a second 10URev team they were welcome to do it. Why didn't Jamie step up then? Would Jamie be satisfied if they asked you to evaluate or coach next year?
What would you look for? Isn't it important to look for super baseball qualities but also to have an eye open for what is happening in between each drill, such as hustle, maturity, following directions, etc? If a player at 10U is caught standing in line hitting his cup with his bat, sliding in the grass when not performing a drill, taking other kids' hats,etc. would this add to the equation for not making the team? As a mom watching, I think yes. You have to have coachable kids that want to listen and follow coaches' directions. When speaking with some of my son's previous coaches, I asked what do they look for in a player during tournament tryouts beside what you see in the tryout itself? Some mentioned with the short time frame of the tryouts, references from previous coaches are important as well as what they have seen from playing the other kids in regular season over the year. I think that having an impartial evaluator is good but in the end it is the coach who should have the final say.
Yes, once again the team is composed of many RL players who have had excellent coaching from tball up through, learning the basic skills of baseball and how to hustle, be to practice on time, and how to play ball when on the field. Good luck to all Revolution Teams this baseball season! GO REVS!

Jamie you need to get a life!!!!!!! Your kid did not make the team for some reason. Stop bashing the other kids and coaching staff. Everyone is sick of your complaining and so called "expert" advise. Let the kids play ball and have fun!

I am not bashing any kids. I am simply raising concerns about the unfairness that was conducted during these tryouts by the coaching staff. Although you've witnessed the same thing, you're either blinded by deception or you fail to admit it.
I really dont think you'd want me coaching your child on a 2nd team and being a radiology intern, I dont have the luxury of time I once had.
My son is on another team that will play in 3-4 post season tournaments before football season, but that's not the point. It's the manner in which these tryouts were conducted. Hastily organized at the last minute. When the 11U and 10U YYR rosters are nearly identical to last years SL all stars, well, you dont have to hold a Ph.D. credential to know what occured. And a 2nd 11U team created with players that didnt even try out? I can show you at least 7 other kids from around York equally deserving to be on those 10U and 11U teams, but they're not. Why? because they participated in another league and the ideology was to keep those SL teams together. According to the REV's GM, it was the SL all star coaches that approached them about about sponsoring the SL all star teams as the YYR. One condition was made by the Revs, an open tryout was to be offered to all York County Little Leaguers with equal representation, and the turnout was pretty good. At the end, those rosters were neary identical to the SL allstars minus 1 or 2 players.
I'm not the only parent that witnessed this atrocity, many other parents have as well.
Last year was last year and I do wish all the teams well for this year.
However, dramatic changes do need to be made within the whole process to ensure that every child has an equal opportunity to participate on these teams with impartial evaluators, not just a few. Being a healthcare provider, I strive on equality and fairness for all and this is something that was not present at those so called tryouts but I can guarantee you that it will be in the future.
There was 1 child deserving of being on the team that was cut. Why? Zelger insisted upon his father coaching a 2nd 10U team, which he refused and rightfully so. Is that fair to the child? No it's not.
I really do not care whether my child or any others were cut as long as they were given an equal opportunity, but they weren't and changes will be made for the future.
And no, I wont evaluate nor coach for reasons other than I mentioned above, those who know me know why.

Thank you for not coaching I would hat to hear the excuses for losses! Look they represent the Rev's and if they feel that they are being misrepresented then maybe your dream will come true just be prepaired for very minimal roster changes if any even with neutral representation. The Revs held open tryouts and took no one and there roster has player on it that were on it last year maybe they have a smoking gun also?

it's amazing to witness such a plethora of mis-spellings and the use of improper grammar from what appears to be alot of Red Lion folks. "Red Lion is the best baseball organization in York?" I don't know, NEYSA and Manchester Township are a bit better. Get a grip RL. Your poop stinks the same as everyone elses!!

I'd like to see a game between the Red Lion and Craley 9-10A teams. I think I'd pay to see that one. Anyone else? Lets get these 2 teams together for a game. I bet we can get ESPN to broadcast it on Sunday Night Baseball since these 2 teams are so superior.

Dear annoyed
I am not a Red Lion folk. I didn't know you had to have good writing skills to be good at baseball! By the way I am from Neysa!

One point of clarification - every kid on the 2nd 11U team partcipated in a tryout - no one was placed on the team without an eval by the coach. The organization reached out to others in the area who did not come to the original tryouts but they chose not to participate.

Oh, really? Why was there no advertisement of a 2nd tryout, I know that both the 10U and 11U evals had around 25-30 participants each. And as with league play and previous tournament teams, there are more than a few players around the area that are more than capable of playing up an age group.
It was only after this letter appeared about Zelger and Company keeping the SL teams 99.5% intact that this 2nd team was formulated.
The parents and coaches of the YYR can rationalize all you want, but a severe injustice has occured in the form of biased opinions and evals and is a slap in the face to every youth that participated. It's about being a part of something new and wearing the same uniform as a professional team.
The only way to make it an equal playing field for every child is to remove the biased evaluators and replace them with those that can be unbiased and add more of them. I will not stop my due process until that is achieved for future team selections to ensure that every participant has an equal opportunity. It's not about which parents are friendly with the coaching staff nor which league they are affliated with, it's about the kids, all the kids, plain and simple.
And somewhere along the line, these coaches and parents have seriously defaulted in that category.

You are wrong on two accounts 1) the 2nd 11U team was well underway the day after the final tryout - you flatter yourself that it was in response to your ridiculous and unfounded comments 2) somewhere up above you claim that only Susq League players made the teams - the 2nd 11U team has 5 players from EYC - wrong again !

I know exactly who those players are from EYC and NONE were present at the 2 day tryouts! Falco, Rissler, Axe, Hogg.. Are these kids that good that they are privy to a closed and private evaluation session apart from other participants?? I dont think so. Nothing against these kids or their parents, I know them all.
And IF they did supposedly "tryout", they did so under the umbrella of secrecy.
Unfounded comments? Many have compared the rosters. Several have copied both sets of rosters from both the York County Baseball Travel 9-10 and YYR websites for comparison. This second team wasnt added until 3-4 weeks after the evals. Maybe Zelger never should have listed the SL 10U all stars "10U Maryland State Champs" and the roster. I guess some people are ticked off that this whole scheme with distorted truths and preferential treatment got uncovered.
Just know this: The evals will change to ensure equality is afforded to every youth player in the area and biased influence will not be a factor for future YYR teams.
When you act and form a team in the name of deception, someone with a bit more intelligence will always uncover the truth. I will stand up for all of those that were the subject of bigotry.

Jamie,
I think you are on the computer to much. If you are so concerned about your son making one of these teams you should probably be outside working on your sons baseball skills. The kids that did make the team are constantly working out on the field or inside if need be. I truly hope that in some way shape or form that you are involved with the evaluations for next years team. If not, then please for my sake and especially for your sake, shut up. Its got to be embarasing for you to keep doing this. Life isn't always fare, so teach your son to deal with it and work harder instead of crying on this site. I'm sure you will have a smart come back for this comment considering all the time that you spend thinking of some reason why your son did not make the team. Why do you keep going on and on about alot of the same kids being on the team from last year. Do you think the whole team is going to be different every year. These kids are good and unless some outstanding kids move in from other areas, the majority of the team will be the same whether they are from Red Lion or not. Talk is cheap, work hard and it will pay off !!!!

I can guarantee you that I'm not embarrassed by anything. The only ones that are embarrassed, "tired" and ticked off are those who got caught with their pants down. I dont hide my identity behind anonymous screen names.
I never said that those kids are not any good. What I said was that I can show you 6,7 maybe 8 others, just as good, if not better and the majority of those kids on those teams were pre-selected even before the evals began. Just remember, kids that get everything handed to them become content and lazy and are often times passed by others. All kids mature and develop at different paces. For you to predict that these kids will make every team from here on out, just shows what occured at those tryouts as well.
My son and others not making the team is not the issue. He will play just as many post season tournaments with his current team. And that is the goal, a little more baseball before football season with EYC. The issue at hand is the manner in which these evals were conducted and the level of bigotry that was present.
I'm pretty sure that there is a game at Nitchkey on May 17 at 5pm. I suggest you watch that game for yourself if there is any question about my sons or any others level of talent.
I can almost bet that his teams top 2-3 pitchers will be pitching and I do predict many strikeouts. Inquire with NEYSA's 9-10 travel A team what they experienced, 15 of 18 batters faced, K's, with 3 different pitchers. I'm pretty sure 1 or 2 of those kids are on the 10U YYR roster. I'm pretty sure that's why Paules wont schedule a game with this team.
I dont saturate my child with constant baseball and live my life thru him. If he has a bad game, he is eager to work on his fundamentals so that he may continue improving. Somewhere along the line, you people in Red Lion have forgotten that this is about the kids, all the kids, not just RL kids.

Image if the only ballots for MLB all stars were only counted from Baltimore Orioles fans. What would happen? The whole AL allstar team would consist of Baltimore Orioles. That seems to be what occured back in November, RL coaches, RL fields, RL request to the Revs=RL dominated teams.
I'd say that I do have to agree with Jamie in conducting future tryouts with more impartial evaluators and not just the coaches with equal representation on the teams. He may sound redundant at times, but does have a valid point. This is for the kids and about the kids, nobody else.

"I coached in the Susquehanna League All-Stars Travel League," Zelger said. "We were limited to selecting kids from specific areas. ... But we'd go to tournaments and play teams from Delaware that pulled kids from whole counties.
"This is an attempt to bring all the leagues under one umbrella. We just want to be competitive and develop good ballplayers."

Hmmm...

As reported by Coach Zelger: The Susquehanna U-10 all star team continued it's winning ways by winning the B.P.A. Maryland State Championship held July 7-8 in Bowie, Md. The team compiled a 4-0 record and outscored their opponents 57-10. By winning the championship, the team has qualified for the B.P.A. "World Series" to be held in Bowie on Aug. 11-12 weekend.
Team Members include: Red Lion: Beezer Zelger, Jon Smith, Dylan Reichard, Austin Huson - West York: Brett Kinneman, Cash Gladfelter, Logan Stover, Noah Townsley - Neysa: Nick Sprenkle, Jake Krevetski - MTAA: Walker Monteith - Dallastown: Tanner Forry

interesting!! Rosters ARE nearly identical except for 1 player. What a crock of deception to use the REV's name!! Somebody with a last name beginning with "Z" is a liar!!

One thing Jamie has right, Zelgar's team was not an "open" tryout although it was advertised as such. They kept the 10 players from the previous year no matter how they performed in the "tryout" (and a couple did not perform well). Once Zelgar saw the level of talent, he decided on another 11U team. Some have hinted that the son of the 2nd 11U team coach was kept off of Zelgar's team since he was the only willing & qualified person to coach the other team.

I also know that this was the case with the 10U team as well. Both Zelger and Paules kept their SL teams intact. Another child was kept of the 10U roster (and he is pretty darn good) in hopes that his father would coach a 2nd 10U team.
This was extremely unfair to those 2 children and I do hope that those 11U and 10U coaches (Zelger and Paules) are barred from coaching future teams for not being in compliance with the York Revolution's request to conduct an open and fair tryout!!
I think that for this year, the tryouts should be conducted at MT fields,
Cousler Park. There are many more fields available, and in better shape as well.

I have also seen Jamie's child play. I haven't seen too many other 10 yr olds that hit the ball as hard as he does and with the plate discipline to match.

did Jamie just say something about getting caught with their pants down??....very strange refernce point..sounds like to me that its a good thing your kid is such an amazing football player now or is it more that there just isnt any cuts in football :)

and I have to tell you that anonymous is nothing more then Jamies second handle on this website..get a life loser!! I would pay a $10 entrance fee to watch Paules team to run you right off your field and down to Long Level and right into the river. You got hammered by RL's B team and you still wanna peice of their A team?? watch what you ask for Loser??

Thank you anonymous, he does love to play the game.
To the person hiding behind the screen name of West York Bulldogs, remember that during a scrimmage, different kids are utilized at different positions, pitchers pitching minimal innings and working on game situations prior to the season, it's a controlled practice. A league game is a different story. You want to schedule a game, I'm sure his coach would be very pleased to oblige to your request.
As far as my son playing football as well, EYC plays your West York Bulldogs in the first game of the season at Central High School on Sept 7. Yes that's correct, EYC has returned to the Central Penn League and hopefully your Bulldogs and the rest of the league can offer them some competition this time around. I can almost bet he'll retain his starting position on the defensive line. Yes EYC does have cuts at the varsity level. You get cut, you play JV.
You see a$$hole, there are some kids with natural athletic ability that are capable of playing 3 different sports and be successfull at all 3 instead of being saturated with only 1.
Loser? Take a good hard look in the mirror prior to slinging any names around. Learn how to spell. I guess you're one of the ones that focused on sports first instead of valuing the importance of an education. Maybe I should use you as an example in my dissertation linking illiteracy and athletics. Go cut some more lawns or play with your truck.

It seems that this person using the W York Bulldogs name has a bit of clairvoyance since he thinks he knows who is using which identity. Maybe you can accurately predict all the winning lottery numbers as well.

Hey Jamie..I could sling a few more names about you that I hear floating around but I will keep this clean. Congratulations in advance for beating up RL's eight year old talent..sure would be a big let down if you dont slaughter them...lol..Dont lose sight as to what league you are playing in..if your son is so good maybe he should have tried out for one of those teams..WAIT..that means he would have gotten cut again..who would you blame that time..Maybe he should try out for rough necks..WAIT..he wouldnt make that team either and then you would be bad mouthing them too..sounds like maybe your son isnt such a 3 sport athlete that you would ike him to be! Get a life!! Your sons has almost certainly moved on so take a 10 year old's advice and do the same!!

You're free to sling any names that you wish to, I just hope you can be original. Like I said before, I dont hide my identity behind fictitious names. Your comments about my son have no effect at all. It's obvious that you've never seen him play nor witnessed his determination to win and improve. You're free to come to any of his teams games, but I know you wont.
He plays where he plays this year because we know that he will get quality and unbiased coaching from both Mark and Bobby at Craley. What league a child plays in has no effect on each childs talent. This team could just as easily compete and probably win the SL 9-10 division but because he was already signed up and the boundry rules that the SL has, they remained in EYC.
Wait, I got an idea. Why dont you contact Mark and schedule a game between your bullfrogs and them? I suppose, according to your thinking, that Hellam, PNH, UP, Spring Garden and others dont have any talent? You think that talent is quarantined to the SL? Guess again.

My disappointment doesn't stem from my son and others being cut, it stems from the unfairness that was conducted at those tryouts and I will voice my concerns with the proper evidence. The Reed kid being kept off hoping his father would coach a 2nd team, Shimmel from Craley being kept off, thinking Mark would coach a 2nd 10U team. My son and a few others being kept off because they participate in a different league or because of who their parents are. The 10U and 11U rosters nearly 100% intact as the SL all stars, others being selected under the mask of a closed tryout (supposedly they were evaluated). In the end, the tryouts were conducted with distorted truths and masked by deception that was witnessed by many, not just me, and that will change for future teams to ensure that every child has an equal opportunity to make the teams, not just SL players.
Like I said, you want to comment, go back to school and learn how to spell and use proper grammar before doing so and leave that truck alone. These are "screen names" not "handles" and you'll know exactly who I am when I comment.

Sounds like Jamie needs some attention. Lets all vote for Jamie for president. He is the best or should I say his kid is the best at EVERYTHING! What a stud!!!!!!!

It is very disturbing to witness such a vast array of immaturity by adults and what appears to be a bunch of fathers reliving their own youth thru their children. Attacking the children? Grow up. If these tryouts were not conducted with complete honesty, take the appropriate measures to correct it for future teams, if there are any future teams. Reminds me of the movie "Varsity Blues" where the 2 fathers are arguing at the Bar-B-Q about which son is the better QB. Grow up people!!

I never said my child was the absolute best at anything. What I did say, however, was that he, as well as quite a few others have just as much, if not more talent than the majority of the 10U and 11U rosters and were not afforded an equal opportunity to participate on those teams. Yes he does play football for EYC and if fact has already begun summer practices. Yes he has started every game for the previous 3 years. Is he the best at football? Not by a long shot. Is he the best at baseball? not by a long shot. But he is better than most. Why? because I dont force him to play, he plays because he loves to play.
Like I said, the writing on the wall in regards to these tryouts doesn't get any clearer. Zelger and Paules approached the Rev's about sponsoring the SL all star teams in reponse to the Jr. Barnstormers. Open tryouts were to be conducted at the request of the Rev's. In the end, both of their teams rosters are nearly identical to those SL teams minus 1 or 2 players. Was a fair and open tryout conducted? No! Zelger said he had no knowledge about any of the rosters being nearly identical. He lied and now the proof indicates that he lied. He is a dishonest person which I find despicable! The only reason these tryouts were conducted, is because it was a stipulation set forth by the Revs. And to date, no plausible reason can be given by Zelger or Paules why those rosters are nearly identical considering the number of kids who did "try out."
What about those parents who maybe could not afford the upfront $300 registration fees? Was there anything in place to accommodate those parents? No there wasnt.
Just remember, when these kids get to the high school level, parental and biased influence will not be a factor and chances are none will be MLB players. Maybe future tryouts should be videotaped.

Constructive criticism can really be helpful sometimes. Knowing how to deliver it and respond to it take a lifetime to learn.

When one goes beyond constructive comments using phrases like “complete disgrace”, “slap in the face”, and “cheap masquerade” and calls people manipulative, shameful and deceitful it is natural for the reader to want to see some evidence for the writer’s charges. I haven’t seen such yet, everything presented is anecdotal and nonsensical – especially knowing the people involved.

The charge appears to be that some of the selected players did not deserve to be on the team, and that they were only chosen because they were from the host community. The evidence appears to be the team’s make-up, alleged quotes from the organizer and questionable selection process.

To challenge the staff about their decisions is fine, but calling people liars in public serves no purpose except to demonstrate poor manners and unfathomable presumptuousness to anyone who might read this board – possibly a player. Writing your charge over and over again, without any attempt to really prove the point or deescalate or bring humor to the discussion is the sign that the writer might not be sincere. Does anyone really believe that if his son had made the team he would be writing these ridiculously self revelatory and self congratulatory posts?
Am I supposed to believe this was some sort of conspiracy? What did the organizers have to gain by choosing local players? Or by choosing worse players? And how can the irate writer say he is not bashing the kids when he posts their names publically and states with utmost certainty that a few players were not given roster spots because certain current players aren’t as good as them?

And just speaking rhetorically, the shifty complaint that was first about the players that supposedly didn’t tryout, then transformed into a complaint about the publication of the invitations to that tryout makes an unbiased commentator deem your testimony about the tryout procedures something much less than reliable.
On the whole though isn’t this kind of thing to be expected in a start up operation? Therefore shouldn’t the criticism take a more helpful tone? What constructive ideas that have been expressed are interesting, but would hardly ensure future complaints like these wouldn’t still occur. Unbiased evaluators? Where are they? You are going to let strangers pick the team for you? If they had done that this time would you not still be writing these posts, but to those ‘unbiased’ ones, perhaps accusing them of being biased one might conjecture?

Taking these duties away from the very people who initiated the program is an utterly ridiculous notion. Improving the selection process is something all teams everywhere need to do (I can’t believe a post actually implied that at the highschool level and such these types of accusations do not occur).

So, alright already, the new team should evaluate their selection process, is there really anything more to say? Does one have to disgrace themselves by tossing out personal insults and implied foul language in order to make such a point? Can we refrain from calling people liars over issues that one can’t prove and would be unthinkable to anyone who knows the people involved?

Finally, the kids are watching, let’s all grow up, get over ourselves and move on. The ship is sailing already and whining about the process, while helpful in part, can also be bad form, and risk nothing but destructiveness. There is a next year isn’t there? Why burn any bridges over this year – understanding that for kids (and parents) every year is BIG. But really, how big? So big that you would poison next year’s well because of it?

Chris Grothe

Friend of the organizers, no association with anything in youth baseball whatsoever

Not that there is anything wrong with that

PS Funniest thing about this board? The inevitable posts bemoaning grammar and punctuation problems,...had incredibly poor grammar and punctuation! Hahahahaa that's rich.

Chris, I call it the way I see it as well as many others. Proof and evidence? Just compare the rosters against the statements Zelger made to the YDR in the original story.
The Red Lion Youth Baseball Organization is notorius for having a shady selection process for all their teams and yes, it carried over to the Young Revolution tryouts. If the well must be poisoned for future teams, then it's poisoned. If they cant conduct it fairly and equally, then let there be no teams.
Even if my own son had made the team under the selection process that occured, I would have pulled him off in favor of a more deserving player. I teach him that nothing in life is free and you must work for everything.
I've also seen the RL 8-10A EYC team play. This team of 8 year olds is the 3rd best team in the 8-10 group that RL has out of what, 7, 8, 9, possibly 10 teams in that age group? Or, are they being groomed for future SL teams?
How can you bring humor to a subject that has brought hurt and pain to children that were cheated?
Chris, being a "friend of the organizers" you cant really commit to a sincere and unbiased opinion......unless you were there and compared the rosters afterwards.
The only way to ensure that every child and I enunciate EVERY CHILD, has an equal opportunity to participate on these teams is to remove the current organizers in favor for someone different.

Mr. Raffensberger,

I can understand your disappointment in your son not making the team. However, the bashing that you so eloquently do on here really serves no purpose. I think it is great that you are inspired to force changes in the way tryout are held for future teams. Change can often times be a good thing. I do think that a more amicable approach to the issue would have gone a longer way to getting everyone believe that your complaints are not just about you and yours. My son made the YYR team and not one of the ones that you keep referring to. As you know there are many more teams for the YYR than those. I believe we found out about the tryouts like many others, through the newspaper. So WE decided to show up. We did not know any of the coaches involved in the evaluation process. What we did discuss was that my son would go in and do his very best, and show the coaches things other than just his baseball skills, such as hustle, coach-ability, and above all else effort. Sometimes this separates those players that are equally matched in skill level. Now I will never profess that my son is the best baseball player of those that tried out whether they made it or not. I'm sure there were some that did not make it that are better, but did they show it then. If you are as knowledgeable about sports as you claim to be then you of all people should know that no tryout is ever perfect or impartial. It's the nature of the beast. We have dad coaches because they do it for their love of the sport, their kids and the kids in their community. Bottom line they are not getting paid to do this and they are surely not doing it to hurt any particular kid, but hard choices have to be made. I'm sure the same could be said at Craley. If you say that these things do not exist at Craley, then please provide the model for the whole nation to use, because it would be a wonderful thing. I'm sure that there are some parents at Craley that are not satisfied with the selection process at that organization as well. I think often time we lose focus of what the term tryouts should mean. It should mean you TRY. If my son had gotten cut he would have been back the next year and the next and the next. My son has not made teams in the past, but I surely will not allow him to quit at something because someone else does not think he is good enough to do something, or he had a bad tryout, it really is a time to teach perseverance. You keep trying is the point and what should be learned through this process. Evaluation processes are not easy and often time’s coaches rely on what or who they know instead of what might be. No it's not always fair. You reference EYC football several times in your post and believe they have recently had a split with a splinter organization now coming from within the ranks of EYC. So clearly you can see how this can happen. I would also caution you in your inference that EYC left Central Penn because of the competition level, because it was the weight structure that the organization was not happy with. I can assure you will get plenty of competition in your upcoming season. Good luck to you and your son with the remainder of his baseball season, hope he does well and also hopes he comes back to for another round with YYR.

I look forward to meeting you during football season

Why is there so much animosity between RL and Craley?

Peoples kids don't make the team, there's an excuse. Chances are, if someone is going to coach - their kid is going to be playing. It's not like it was 20-some years ago when I was in Little League where we had coaches falling from the skys and they were all mostly retired with no children involved in the league! The long and short of it is, if I'm going to coach, it's going to be my sons team.

Jaime - I have had the opportunity to pick between kid "A" and kid "B" - both with relative equal scores and kid "A" has a pain in the butt dad (ie: you) I wouldn't take him - I'd take kid "B" with marginally less baseball skills but has a supportive family because NEGATIVITY IS CONTAGEOUS!!!!

For clarification ... Jaime, when I said that I have had the opportunity, I did not mean that it was with YYR. I am just saying, in the past / in my organization.

Another point I'm confused about is ... if there were "unbiased / neutral evaluators" ... and ones child was not selected, would the excuse be "because he cannot hit off a jugs" ... "because he really hits live pitching better" ... "because he just had a bad try out" ... "anybody that knows my kid knows he plays better than a try out" You cannot remove the personalism from a try out. As said many many times before though this thread, a coach wants to WIN tournaments, why would he take lesser skilled players???????

I find that to be a little amusing. In the only other organization he's played for, he's been selected for the top team in his age group (and I assisted with coaching only after he made the team), with exception to his first year as a 7 yr old, 4 yrs ago and has been selected for 3 previous tournament teams and played up an age group one year. So, maybe you're confused with someone else.
Why the move to Craley? Cause he gets much better coaching and is with other good baseball players where they are still undefeated.
Animosity? Ask Brent Paules why he made a scene at the 1st Craley v. Red Lion game a couple Saturdays ago. The Red Lion coaches leave another rubber in front of the rubber in use, a batter hits the ball back to the pitcher, hits the 1st rubber and bounces up to hit the pitcher in the face.....and somehow it's Craley's fault for the negligence?? Why does the RL EYC 8-10A team get preferential treatment over the other RL 8-10 teams? Customized jerseys? come on. I bet this same group of kids are kept together next year as the Red Lion SL 9-10 B team.
So, why the animosity? I can tell you that there are a few kids on Craley and a few from other organizations that are better ball players and better deserving of being on those YYR teams than some that are on. See, with Craley, it's about the kids and only the kids and with RL, well, it's about which parents are friends with who. You're friends with the coach, your kid makes the team. It's called a clique and unfortunately, that had carried over to those tryouts conducted last fall.
Pain in the butt? I'm only a pain in the butt when something like this has occured. I'll not only stand up for my child, but for every child that this has occured to. I not only cheer for my own son on the sidelines, I cheer for each and every one of his teammates as well.
What's the remedy? Have coaches evaluate an age group where they have no knowledge of any of the players with every organization represented. That way, coaches cant select their own children who may not be talented enough to be on a team.
Any kind of evals should never be conducted on the Jugs. Batting practice, ok, not evals. A ball being jetisoned out of 2 rotating wheels is not the same as picking the ball up upon release from the pitchers arm motion.
And per your last sentence of your 2nd post...obviously at one point you selected a lesser skilled player when you chose player B over player A. I guess the same thing happened at the YYR tryouts as well.

young revolution stinks its way to much money.every body on the 11u red team is on there because of zelger zelgers son is on there because he thinks he is the best!!!taner is the best so zelger dallastown is going to woop your but

I am a parent/helper in the eyc league and I have talked to parents of the craley kids and they said the team is about 3 or 4 kids. I guess Jamies son is one of them. Thats why he likes Craley so much. Eyc is more like a recreation league and to say your undefeated means absolutely nothing, but if it makes you feel better thats fine. If I felt my kid was so much better than everyone else, I would put him in a different league.

No, the Craley 8-10A team is comprised of 12 players, not 3-4. As I've indicated previously, my son plays for Craley because I know he'll receive good quality coaching to improve his skills....and because he likes it. It doesnt matter where he plays. I never indicated he was so much better than everyone else, he's not even the best on his own team. But...those 3-4 you mention are better than some on the current YYR 10U team.
Undefeated, a win is a win and this team could compete in any league with the pitching they have.
Seasons winding down and hopefully changes have been incorporated to make participation on the YYR teams more equal for every player, no matter what league or team they play for.

wanna play rl 10u they are playing in the Dover tour. put up or shut up

i have seen mr. zelgers team play a few times this year and i must say that his son is the best player on his red lion team. by far the best hitter, he can play the infield or the outfield. he can pitch with the best of them. maybe he doesn't throw very hard but he has pinpoint control. there is not another kid on the team that is better than him. maybe i missed someone else with the talent of the younger zelger, if so please tell me who is better than him.

I think we'd love to play and beat this RL team. Cant this weekend though....gotta championship game at 10am Saturday. Why pay $225 and risk a forfeit in this tournament? I'm sure these 2 teams can get together!! If RL got the marbles.

dont question the marbles of others when you are not sure of your own

I'm perfectly fine with mine, or the lack thereof. The question is, why has the 15-1 RL SL 8-10A team been dodging the 18-0 Craley 8-10A team??
Get em together, champion v. champion at a neutral field, winner take all. No doubt in my mind who'd prevail for their 19th consecutive victory, I think others know it as well.

I'm perfectly fine with mine, or the lack thereof. The question is, why has the 15-1 RL SL 8-10A team been dodging the 18-0 Craley 8-10A team??
Get em together, champion v. champion at a neutral field, winner take all. No doubt in my mind who'd prevail for their 19th consecutive victory, I think others know it as well.

u all suck. young revolution is a great ball club!

How many tournaments did they win last year?? Yeah right, they rock. Oh, and the rosters are nearly identical........again. Same coaches, same type of evals, nearly the same rosters...exactly why quite a few didnt even waste the time of "trying out" for teams that were already pre-selected......again. What did they change? Oh, they moved to Cousler Park this year. Wow, that's encouraging. Again, these coaches and organizers proved themselves to be of highly ignorant quality.

The try outs will always be the same as long as Mike Zelger is in charge of them. Each year his roster is pretty much the same, but if you notice it does change some. After some research i found some interesting information. Some kids don't want to play for him after seeing him in action. This is with both his Young Revolution and his Red Lion teams. Austin Huson- in tears as Zelger went on one of his tirades. He wasn't on the 2008 roster. Dylan Reichard wasn't on the 2008 roster either. He now plays on Coach paules team. The 2009 roster? There are two players missing from the previous year again. Noah Townsley and Jon Smith. I wonder why? The rumor I hear is that Townsley was cut from the team. He was on that team for 3 years and is cut? Let me guess, he didn't hit .500. Jon Smith, not only the catcher for the Revolution team but also Zelger's Red Lion team. Seems that he has had enough of the " Mike Zelger " baseball. He simply walked away from this team. I wonder who is next to be cut or walk away? I hear the same kind of stories from parents who had kids on his Red Lion teams. Many are anxious to see what happens in the 2009 season without Zelger as a coach. They all seem to think that it will be a better team. The kids will be able to play more relaxed. I always enjoyed when my son's team played Zelger's Red Lion team for the competition, but felt bad for his players in the end. Every time i watch one of his games there is at least one player to be on the receiving end of one of his tantrums. What a way to build a child's confidence Mr. Zelger!

Too many sour grapes for me.

I was paging through the dictionary the other day and came across the phrase "compulsive lier"...... next to it was a picture of Mike Zelger!

For Mike to step down as coach is not necessarily a bad thing for all involved. Doing so can give him ample time to focus his time & attention to the leagues he runs as opposed to trying to split his time between director and coach. Mike has brought a lot of solid baseball to the community, and not just his hometown. However, as with any youth sports organization, there will be issues that arise, making his position a challenging one. A successful organization has a Director in place who listens to issues as they arise, gathers facts, remains unbiased and impartial, and makes a decision based upon what benefits the kids and the future of the organization, not just doing what adults think should be done. While there will always be loyalty to good, solid coaches within an organization, if a coach is out of line or does something that is not in the best interest of an innocent child trying to play travel baseball (from tryouts, to practices, to game day), then you have a situation that the Director must control, sooner rather than later! Throwing issues under the rug or waiting for them to dissipate on their own does not benefit our kids. Kis are relying on coaches, parents, directors, and board members to offer a layer of sanity and protection to them. To permit animosity to continue to grow within an organization is not appropriate either. To tolerate animosity being filtered down to kids is disrespectful of the same kids we try to teach to be respectful of others. Parents, coaches, and kids rely on a Director or Board to see these issues through to fruition. Many people involved in the Young Revolution have a "dream" of seeing this organization still be in existence in 20-30 years. If impartial, third-party evaluators are not brought into tryouts next year, this dream will soon fade away. Additionally, every year the success and coaching abilities of the coaches should be evaluated by the Director/Board. Just as a kid risks getting cut following a tryout, and just as kids and coaches have a code of ethics to follow, written or unwritten, if you can't abide by that code, you as a coach risk not being asked to return to an organization. Coaches should not be an automatic "in" because of their name or because of who they say they were 20 years ago in the minor leagues or in high school or who they previously coached - or attempted to coach but failed or were ousted - or who you work for, or because you are involved in sports in upper division colleges. There are many, many good coaches in York County, so when a coach falls short, there is plenty to draw from. An unqualified coach/coaches should not ruin it for kids who have the atlent and heart to win ball games. Qualified coaches and assistant coaches for the most part are in place in the Young Revs organization, with the exception of a few, and you know who you are. If for one reason or another a Director doesn't want to or is not able to deal with things as they arise, then why not have issues brought before and decided by the entire impartial Board? And, if the Director - or a family member of the Director - is involved in a situation, then the Director should have no involvement in the handling of the issue. This would alleviate any conflict of interest accustaions towards Mike, which I would think he would we